Okoratu wrote:

The scaling thing about rest moments being like typed out doesnt seem to make sense, it doesn't add anything. That's what it's supposed to state right now in the current criteria and is what gezo was saying - the breaks scale depending on tempo, writing out more values doesn't add information it's not written out to avoid running into this "oh my god there's 1500 hard set values in the RC that we have to follow now"

Gezoda wrote:

Splitting breaks in half-values however is a good idea for some mappers usually use 7+1 beats for the basic skeleton - forcing a 2/1 break after two occurences of this just breaks the structure overall.

1. the addition of the following proposed rule in the general section:
   Use a lower base slider velocity for the Kantan and Futsuu in sets timed in a BPM faster than 300. You may apply a similar slider velocity to the Muzukashii and Oni if necessary.
2. the revision of the 1.2x sv proposed guideline in kantan and futsuu to state the following:
   Use a lower base slider velocity in a BPM higher than 240.This is simply to ensure the readability of notes for beginners at higher BPMs.
3. the removal of the following phrase from any proposed guideline:
   This can be adjusted to 8/1 or 12/1 in a BPM higher than 240, or 32/1 or 36/1 in a BPM lower than 140.
   
   new/possible ideas:
4. since the biggest problem is the mapper's awareness that the guidelines are set in a 180bpm environment, it may be a good idea to end something along the lines of "Be sure to adjust these values in a BPM much higher or lower than 180." to the end of the break time guidelines. it may be redundant, but at least it is explicitly stated at the end of each guideline, hopefully avoiding the "i didn't know" excuse
5. addition of a similar alternative break time guideline to the futsuu? i personally don't think it's necessary since finding a 2/1 break is normally very easy, but it does seem a bit weird to offer an alternative for k/m but not futsuu. perhaps using the same structure but "two (or three) 3/2 breaks after no longer than 8/1 of continuous mapping" may be a good idea?

Nepuri wrote:

I agree with the edits although to say:

The Rule about lower base SV in kantans and futsuus should have added: "Or equivalent adjustment via inherited timing points".

Newer mappers should not face a wall like this when people come to them in their kantans saying "screw you make this 1.2 or ill punch you", some should be able to do it with green lines if they want to, people might find that easier to manage.

-Kazu- wrote:

I don't really have a clear opinion about the matter tbh, but I'd say the only time the rule is kinda wacky to follow is when the song isn't composed in 4/4 because that ends up making the breaks feel weird on their placements most the time
As for the using a "second ruleset" as you stated (like, instead of doing a 3/2 rest in muzu, doing continuous 1/1 for a while) I think is nice to limit at which point we can appeal to the "guideline" nature of these rules.

tatatat wrote:

Please do not forget that your proposal directly affects the current guideline:

The base slider velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset. This is to ensure optimal quantity of notes on the playfield, as well as the optimal distance of separation between different notes.

Please deal with this in your proposal. Thank you c:

Also, can you unnest the lists? its very disorientating to read. The comments at the end seem like they are part of the proposal, but the language used wouldn't be acceptable.

incandescence wrote:

tatatat wrote:

Please do not forget that your proposal directly affects the current guideline:

The base slider velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset. This is to ensure optimal quantity of notes on the playfield, as well as the optimal distance of separation between different notes.

Please deal with this in your proposal. Thank you c:

Also, can you unnest the lists? its very disorientating to read. The comments at the end seem like they are part of the proposal, but the language used wouldn't be acceptable.

the guideline in question should simply be edited to say:
The base slider velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset timed slower than 240 BPM. This is to ensure optimal quantity of notes on the playfield, as well as the optimal distance of separation between different notes.

good thing to bring up, editing it a tiny bit will keep all the proposed sv guidelines coherent.

and uh no the separations are clearly divised by bolded headers, i'm not unnesting the lists lmao

1. the addition of a new guideline for break times in the kantan and muzukashii that states the following:
   
   As a substitute for the above guideline, you may insert no less than two 2/1 breaks after no longer than 8/1 of continuous mapping in a BPM equal to or lower than 180. This should give beginner players ample and frequent time to avoid strain. (Kantan)
   
   As a substitute for the above guideline, you may insert no less than two 1/1 breaks after no longer than 8/1 of continuous mapping in a BPM equal to or lower than 180. This should give intermediate players ample and frequent time to avoid strain. (Muzukashii)
2. the revision of the of the 1.4x base sv guideline in the general section to state the following:
   The base slider velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset timed slower than 240 BPM. This is to ensure optimal quantity of notes on the playfield, as well as the optimal distance of separation between different notes.
3. the addition of the following proposed rule in the general section:
   Use a lower base slider velocity in the Kantan and Futsuu for sets in a BPM equal to or higher than 300. You may apply a similar slider velocity to the Muzukashii and Oni if necessary.
4. the revision of the 1.2x sv proposed guideline in kantan and futsuu to state the following:
   Use a lower base slider velocity in a BPM higher than 240. This is simply to ensure the readability of notes for beginners at higher BPMs.
5. the removal of the following phrase from any proposed guideline:
   This can be adjusted to 8/1 or 12/1 in a BPM higher than 240, or 32/1 or 36/1 in a BPM lower than 140.
6. the revision of the futsuu guideline not allowing more than 4 notes when the futsuu is the easiest difficulty to state the following:
   1/2 patterns should not be longer than five notes.

1. addition of a similar break time alternative to the futsuu, since one is not present in the current proposal
2. reiterating that the guidelines are set with a 180bpm song in mind to the end of each break time guideline as oppose to just once throughout the entire RC to eliminate the "i didn't know" excuse
3. revision of the lower base SV in kantans and futsuus to state that an equivalent adjustment using inherited timing points is allowed as oppose to changing the base SV of the difficulty.

incandescence wrote:

since discussion has come to a halt for now, i'll restate all changes that have been discussed:

1. the addition of a new guideline for break times in the kantan and muzukashii that states the following:
   
   As a substitute for the above guideline, you may insert no less than two 2/1 breaks after no longer than 8/1 of continuous mapping in a BPM equal to or lower than 180. This should give beginner players ample and frequent time to avoid strain. (Kantan)
   
   As a substitute for the above guideline, you may insert no less than two 1/1 breaks after no longer than 8/1 of continuous mapping in a BPM equal to or lower than 180. This should give intermediate players ample and frequent time to avoid strain. (Muzukashii)
   
2. the revision of the of the 1.4x base sv guideline in the general section to state the following:
   The base slider velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset timed slower than 240 BPM. This is to ensure optimal quantity of notes on the playfield, as well as the optimal distance of separation between different notes.
   
3. the addition of the following proposed rule in the general section:
   Use a lower base slider velocity in the Kantan and Futsuu for sets in a BPM equal to or higher than 300. You may apply a similar slider velocity to the Muzukashii and Oni if necessary.
   
4. the revision of the 1.2x sv proposed guideline in kantan and futsuu to state the following:
   Use a lower base slider velocity in a BPM higher than 240. This is simply to ensure the readability of notes for beginners at higher BPMs.
   
5. the removal of the following phrase from any proposed guideline:
   This can be adjusted to 8/1 or 12/1 in a BPM higher than 240, or 32/1 or 36/1 in a BPM lower than 140.
   
6. the revision of the futsuu guideline not allowing more than 4 notes when the futsuu is the easiest difficulty to state the following:
   1/2 patterns should not be longer than five notes.

along with those discussed edits, the following ideas have yet to be discussed thoroughly:

1. addition of a similar break time alternative to the futsuu, since one is not present in the current proposal
   
2. reiterating that the guidelines are set with a 180bpm song in mind to the end of each break time guideline as oppose to just once throughout the entire RC to eliminate the "i didn't know" excuse
   
3. revision of the lower base SV in kantans and futsuus to state that an equivalent adjustment using inherited timing points is allowed as oppose to changing the base SV of the difficulty.

for an easier to read, less cluttered version of the current already discussed edits, feel free to check out the google doc: click here

thank you all

tatatat wrote:

Mister tacoman, your suggested guidelines for slider velocity leave a blindspot at 240 bpm. "The base slider velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset timed slower than 240 BPM." "Use a lower base slider velocity in a BPM higher than 240." neither one of these suggested guidelines have a "or equal to" one of them should be greater than or equal to/less than or equal to.


Also I think it would be a good idea to somehow combine "The base slider velocity should be 1.40 throughout all difficulties of a mapset timed slower than 240 BPM." and "Use a lower base slider velocity in the Kantan and Futsuu for sets in a BPM equal to or higher than 300."


Also probably my final suggestion, can you please make it more immediately clear what are rules and guidelines? Perhaps with rule and guideline headings? I believe it'll make discussion easier.

Okoratu wrote:

at one point in the draft it used to be 32/1

and then it wasnt and i forgot why

also the described 3/2 is very close to 1/1, so if a map uses predominantly 1/1 that should be able to compensate the absence of rest moments in comparison to more 1/2 heavy maps for any given section

re: oni - 1/1 is considered a rest there so oni suddenly are full of breaks usually