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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

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Tom94
Hello everyone,

note that currently the osu!mania ranking is not functional. If you have any suggestions on how the future system should work, then leave it in this thread, please. :)


I'd like to mention a few things regarding how I plan on tackling this.

The general direction:

  1. First of all, everyone can decide on his/her own which maps he deems good or bad, or which ones he/she prefers playing. We shouldn't be forcing certain maps on people by making them worth more for no sensible reason.
  2. I'll try to make an algorithm that's fair for both auto-converts and mode-specific maps. We will all see how it turns out, and if it's alright, then I see no reason to reduce the value of auto-converts. As mentioned above you are still free to play the maps you prefer playing. I can however understand where the auto-convert argument is coming from, and it'll definitely be addressed if there won't be a good solution that weights all maps the same.
  3. Default X-key modes exist for each specific beatmap for a reason. My initial plan is to give slightly more points to the default X-key mode of a particular beatmap than any custom one. This is not set in stone yet and most likely will change in one way or another while testing.
  4. Unfortunately X-key specific ranking is not going to happen. That'd be for one part a way too huge amount of things to manage and for the other would clutter up everything.

Beatmap difficulty:

As for Taiko and CtB I also got an initial difficulty list for osu!mania ready. This is the gamemode I am the least sure about my results and so far only the base algorithm is done with no variations. However, you can already see how low converts are weighted simply because they are so easy, I've included a few of the harder ones:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0

Get the feedback going. ;)
Akali
I think you accidentally a word, but:

Count only custom mania charts.

PyaKura
That'd be probably too much to ask for, but make it so only mania-specific mapsets are counted towards the pp system. I can't stand seeing people who doesn't play mania for real (read : people who plays autoconverts) getting ahead of me (of us, mania-spec players) in the ranking system.

Then there is another issue about differentiating different K players but that's a whole other story alright...
Kamikaze
I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp
ExPew

Akali wrote:

I think you accidentally a word, but:

Count only custom mania charts.

hmm, i disagree that. let the autoconvert ranked for mania

since mania have extra star difficult over 5+...why not p.points count on star difficult? (ex: 8.50 get more pp than autoconvert 5.00) if someone get fc or good perform?

i feel bad if all key modes mixed rank
PyaKura

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp
Ok another one who thinks lower Ks are obviously easier than higher Ks.

ExPew wrote:

Akali wrote:

I think you accidentally a word, but:

Count only custom mania charts.

hmm, i disagree that. let the autoconvert ranked for mania

since mania have extra star difficult over 5+...why not p.points count on star difficult? (ex: 8.50 get more pp than autoconvert 5.00) if someone get fc or good perform?
Except that we all know how star rating is BS.
Hello my name is Sweet Rain [Another] and I have a SR of 2.7, nice to meet you all !
Aqo
- average map density
- peak density for a 3~8 seconds length of the hardest part of the map
- amount of jacks and how long/fast jacks are they

those are the main 3 things that make mania charts hard to get a good result on; and they're often absent in most autoconverts, which leads those autoconverts to just be an acc-farm-fest.

there -ARE- some autoconverts that are hard and deserve rank imo, like extreme fantasy, dj amuro - F, etc

but either way, stuff like A ranks on much harder charts should be worth more than S ranks on very easy charts. The algorithm should be able to determine "difficulty of getting S" per chart based on the 3 above criteria and awards points accordingly, where a B rank gives roughly no points (because you can pretty much just mash fast enough and get B on most things), A rank (90-95) gives a fair amount of points depending on amount of bads and eventually S ranks giving much more but with a more linear addition from extra acc.

yes, SS is -much- harder than 97% on the same chart, but SS [Normal] shouldn't beat 95% [Hard] or SS [Hard] shouldn't beat 95% [Insane] and so on. (the difficulty names are just to illustrate difficulty progression. difficulty names are pretty much meaningless in mania, not hard to find something called [Easy] harder than most ranked [MX] charts lol)
ExPew

PyaKura wrote:

Except that we all know how star rating is BS.
Hello my name is Sweet Rain [Another] and I have a SR of 2.7, nice to meet you all !
that time broken SR

same with DJPOP's 1st mania map too [7K MX -2.76], but well old map is old that time SR so lol
Tear
Do anything but for the love of god do not count autoconverts in pp.
And imo different keymodes are not comparable - you can't say that some 4K player is better or worse than a 7K player. They should have separate rankings.
-Blossom-
I think it's kinda of impossible to put only mania map sets counting for pp.
First of all, there are a lot of converted maps pretty hard to pass. And second, we still don't have many good mania mappers and so, we don't have many good maps to play. The ratio of Osu standart maps to Osu Mania maps is like 500/1. But yes, i agree that Mania maps should count the most.

And i think the same goes for key count. You can't judge the difficulty of a map by its key count.
It's true that the majority of easy diffs are with 4k but i've seen hard diffs with 4k too. Not saying is wrong too judge a diff by its key count but it can be inaccurate, and i think that we all want a new system that judges things the fairest way possible
PyaKura

ExPew wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

Except that we all know how star rating is BS.
Hello my name is Sweet Rain [Another] and I have a SR of 2.7, nice to meet you all !
that time broken SR

same with DJPOP's 1st mania map too [7K MX -2.76], but well old map is old that time SR so lol
Well look, SR is still broken :p.
Maps featuring slow/calm parts often don't have many notes at said parts, whereas the rest of the song has very high density. I'm thinking of this who deserves a higher SR than what it currently has.
Aqo

-Blossom- wrote:

First of all, there are a lot of converted maps pretty hard to pass.
uh, no?
I completely suck at mania and at this point can pass all the autoconverts in existence. (Some are hard to play though, extreme fantasy etc)
If you're having trouble passing autoconverts then... -_-

There's already 80 ranked mania mapsets, with usually 3-4 diffs per one. That's already plenty, and with the increased amount of mania BATs the ranking speed of new mania charts has drastically gone up. Autoconverts are no longer needed.
-Blossom-

Aqo wrote:

I completely suck at mania and at this point can pass all the autoconverts in existence. (Some are hard to play though, extreme fantasy etc)
If you're having trouble passing autoconverts then...
[/quote]


For you, passing a map envolves just finishing it, despite the full combo or acc? For me, passing a map is to have, for example, >98% of acc
Aqo
Well, obviously a pass in osu isn't the same as a pass in LR2.
The point was that there is a clear level gap between the majority of autoconverts and actual mania maps.

Save for a few deathstream-focused autoconverts that due to some aligning of planets came out as chords instead of just stairs and thus are actually hard to play, most autconverts are just an accuracy grind that doesn't test your mania skill but rather your patience for retries.

I'm not against the -much harder- -very few- autoconverts giving *some* points but it should still be vastly inferior to actual mania charts. Players who are good enough to play those harder autoconverts well are also good enough to play actual mania charts so they can just get their points from there.
PyaKura
I didn't know that "passing" actually had another meaning than "finishing/surviving" a map. Huehue.
But that's off topic 'k.

80 ranked mapsets really is a few. But I'm pretty sure it will reflect the real level of mania players and force players to actually play mania, not some random autoconverts which aren't representative of what is encounterable in mania-spec maps.
Akali
It doesn't matter if they are hard or not, it's just they don't fit the concept of the game at all. Sliders can mean two drum hits in osu! - looks and sounds obnoxious in mania. Spinners start at random times after the objects. Only times you need any "finger independence" are return sliders. Also they look terrible.

If I made a rankable standard map, converted it to mania, copied it note by note and submitted as o!mania mapset, would it get ranked? No, not at all. Why should it be ranked then if a program did it.

Seperate rankings for everything could be good (converts, 7k 4k) but it would create much mess as well (6k doesn't really gets much love etc), so I don't know. Legacy ranking so old scores aren't forgotten and new pp counting mania custom only maybe?
PyaKura
Plus people who are addicted to competition/ranking would be forced to play mania-spec mapsets. That's a thing I would love to see haha.
Janioszek
The rating system can't be that harsh as there are not many non-convert maps compared to the amount of auto-converts. After introducing such performance ranking only those several maps (compared to whole number of other maps) will be played. In my opinion, better idea would be to, for example, give half of performance points for auto-converts (or other percentage of normal stake), so it won't disqualify normal maps. You may want it or not, but every map, converted or not, is a part of osu!mania...
Maiz94
PP should be counted when a player successfully play harder difficulty than playing easier difficulty.

About auto-convert ranked mixed maps on PP, yes, they shouldn't even counted in the 1st place because they aren't the representative of the mania maps. Those auto-converts should be used as a tool for a beginner player to learn about mania and not as a tool for farming PP.

Also, regarding to the keycounts, I think more keys means much harder as it should be counted as more keys = more PP.
October Scream
Key mods should not give or should take any pp possible. The key mods should also be unranked if you don't want to get pp involved. Key mods change the whole song for the player by giving them less notes, and different placements of the notes, so it is completely unrelated to the song in it's normal state. Half time and easy are fine since they don't change the songs note placement or amount of notes.
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